Corporate Hallucinations

Hey Steve,

I think we've all had similar moments. I once spent the better part of a week bitching and moaning because my new laptop wasn't burning DVDs properly. I made a really big deal about it. Then I heard from a friend of mine that his four-year-old niece's leukaemia had returned. I rightly felt like a jackass.

I'm not sure what my point is, but don't be too hard on yourself.

My condolences.

Steve, first of all, condolences about your cousin. What an awful loss.

Did you by any chance have a Catholic education? I hate to generalize, but I find that those of us who (often) suffered at the hands of the good nuns and brothers have a skewed sense of karma. Just last week, a good friend of mine who accidentally injured herself believed that the cut and resulting infection (which required hospitalization) were somehow connected to the fun weekend she had just enjoyed. Yes, she and I had attended Catholic school together for eight years.

A Confederacy of Dunces is also one of my favourite books. Maybe it's Ignatius's lament about Fortuna that makes it such an enticing read. But please, Steve, don't think that your happiness is in any way connected to someone else's pain! If someone had called to tell you they just won the lottery, would you have found a link there?? ;-)))

Jim and Donna:

Thanks for the kind condolences. I know, I know . . . I'm not being too hard on myself . . . it was just an awful moment, and awful feeling, that I hope to never repeat.

Yes, Donna, I WAS raised Catholic. I blame the Catholic Church for so much, I don't mind piling this "fear of feeling good about life and yourself" onto the pile, either. I'm sure they had something to do with it.

My dream, when I lay down to sleep at night, is that one day, the Vatican will be brought before the UN and tried for crimes against humanity.

But that's just me.

Thanks again for the kind words.

Steve C.

Steve:

I don't specifically refer to Fortuna's Wheel but rather the gigantic Wheel of Karma.

Eventually the big Wheel 'o Karma will roll back around. And crush you underneath it.

Sorry about your cuz. Take care of the wife and kids. In the immortal words of Warren Zevon, "Enjoy every sandwich."

Sorry about your loss Steve. Part of life is death and until it hits a little close to home, you really don’t think too much about it.

You say you know what life is all about and why you work, and I think you did in fact find the meaning of life. It’s a shame that you can’t have happiness all the time but happiness comes in small doses, time with your son, a good cup of Guatemalan coffee or Corporate Initiative #221 being initiated etc. This is what make those moment memorable.

Yeah being raised Catholic has kind of taught me that what ever I do no matter what, I’m going to hell. You kind of distance yourself from those silly beliefs once you’re old enough to think for yourself.

My wife lives kind of by her own Newton's Third Law of Karma. For every bad thought or action there will be an equal bad action toward her. If I mutter something negative about some idiot on the road, my wife will immediately tell me to “Be Quiet! Don’t talk that way before our vacation.” I just know there is good and bad and hopefully not to much bad. You can certainly make decision that affects your life dramatically in a positive or negative way but death is inevitable for everything on earth.

Steve, remember you have millions of readers and your first thought should always be a technology problem. Technology is great when it works!

While I, too, am so sorry for your loss, I think you can't stop enjoying life (and while I didn't know your cousin I will guess he would want his family/friends to grab onto everything it offers with both hands?).

I am also so reassured to discover that I am not the only "reformed Catholic" out there. I am reconciled to going to hell no matter what according to Rome's rules, so I intend to enjoy every damn minute until then! I think we all should, and without any apologies.

My own philosopy of life tends toward something called "the rule of three" which states that everything you do, think or wish (both bad and good) comes back to you times three. I like this because it puts me in charge instead of "Fortuna". If I think good stuff, I usually get good stuff back. If I'm a cranky bitch, ya well, tomorrow's another day! But we can't control everything, so rolling with those punches is sometimes the best you can do.

Steve - know your little community is thinking of you and wishing you condolences

I was not raised Catholic, as you know, Steve. My God is a loving God who wants us to be happy. Sometimes the path to being eternally happy includes moments like that when we're faced with the pain and imperfection of this life on earth. How can we know happiness if we don't have some sadness to compare it with?

I've had many moments like the one you described (and please accept my condolences on your loss, too). But looking back on them, I realize they were also the best times of my life. You can't forge iron without fire.

Hi, Steve:

Sorry for your loss. I've atually cracked a folder titled "Friends and relatives: Disease, depression, death, debt, and divorce." It's pretty full.

The Buddha writes that "Existence is sufering," and Cardinal Bernadin used to observe that "All lessons in life are learned at the foot of the Cross."

It must seem that suffering is the natural condition and that happiness is a transitory event and a matter of chance. But my best friend - a priest who died while saying mass in Michigan last March - once told me that simply to be aware that you're alive - here, now - is to be happy. "Existence is ecstacy."

"We must imagine Sysiphus as happy" - Camus

Suffering can numb us - or shock us into consciousness and the necessity to love as an act of praise. Read "Lear."

Call me before you go to Poland,

Patrick

Steve,

I'm so sorry about your cousin. Please don't be hard on yourself...I'm sure your cousin would not want you to beat yourself up over this. While I'm not Catholic, I have experienced that same kind of guilt when getting bad news while extremely happy.

And I admit, I have moments when I question why God allows certain things to happen, such as both my paternal grandparents dying at Thanksgiving three years apart and my maternal grandmother dying at Christmas. It makes me nervous as the holidays approach, even though they have always been my favorite time of year. It's like you don't want to enjoy them too much just in case.

The best thing you can do is to cherish the good memories you have of your cousin and make sure to share them with his wife and children. And continue to enjoy the sweet moments of life, out on your boat with Jake.

Hugs,
Sonya

Hi, again, Steve:

Wanted to say a word on the anti-Catholic strain in some of the comments, as I sympathize with them, and have, actually, lived them, as a child and adolescent, and am shamed by the priest scandal and the incompetence of some of our teachers and pastors in our pre-Vatican II youth.

But we're not kids any more. Nixon's corruption didn't mean you throw out the Constitution; Enron's corruption doesn't mean businesses don't provide useful services.

I've been a practicing Catholic all my life, more than a half-century, and what I'd say is that the center of the faith is the life of Christ as presented in the gospels, especially the mandate to serve the poor, and the sacramental re-enactiment of Christ's life in the Mass and eucharist. What Catholics believe is codified in the Creed, which has little to do with the comments you usually read.

You want to talk about Catholicism? Start with the life of Christ, the gospels, the sacraments and the missions - not some grudge against an uneducated, possibly frustrated teacher who yelled at you in Junior High. We were victims then; we're responsible adults now. I know of no other organization that does more for the poor - here and abroad - than the Catholic Church.

It strikes me a recidivist that some people think they're going to a place called "hell" after they die. What hell? Where? Down some place? Down where?

Heaven or hell are here and now, not some surprise that will come when you die.

So, it's easy to satirize the Ratzinger papacy and nurse childhood wounds inflicted by ignorant people in positions of authority - which, I acknowledge, are real and in too many cases permanent. I'm a member of that club, and as pointed in my criticisms and as public in advocating the need to reform as anyone I know, inside or outside the church. But I'm not, as the last permissable prejudice has it, "a recovering Catholic." I'm grateful for the gift of faith and the call to service that came to me through the Curch.

Put another way, I remember something a Methodist minister once told me: "We're not good to the poor in hopes that some day we'll see the face of God. We're good to the poor because - at that moment - we're seeing the face of God." I never would have arrived at that insight without the gift of faith and the competent teaching of Chistian educators.

So, I read the Tribune and lower my face into my palms at each new disclosure in the history of clerical sexual abuse and anti-feminist canonical legislation. It outrages me. But I also can walk outside my door in Chicago - any time, any day - and see the face of God and discover the universal vocation, the call to serving the poor, as transmitted to us from the source of all vocations.

That's what it means to be a Catholic, and I'm proud - actually, grateful, rather than proud - to be a Catholic,

Patrick

Steve -

Hugs to you and yours and my condolences on the passing of your cousin.

I wasn't raised Catholic but that doesn't mean that I don't often feel as though I have a giant bull-eye on my back. There's so much needless suffering in the world it's hard not to wonder what kind of diety could allow it. That's part of being human.

But as I read your story, I found myself thinking that the good feeling you were experiencing might have come from cousin. Not to get all "Ghost Whisperer" but my particular philosphical/religious tradition teaches that the only thing that is truly real is the love we give and the love we receive, so who's to say that on his way to whatever comes next, Tommy didn't stop by and smile knowing that for a brief moment you truly understood what life was about while you were still alive to enjoy it.

Just a thought...

Patrick, I have to thank you for such a candid and heartfelt comment on your faith. It's refreshing to see someone who is not apologetic for their beliefs and for their participation in an imperfect institution (as is everything run by imperfect humans).

I practice my faith in a Baptist church, which immediately causes most people to groan and roll their eyes and make all kinds of assumptions about me that simply are not true. It seems to me that nothing has done more to cause people to run from God than religion. It has always been so. Even Jesus Christ himself fought most vigorously with the religious leaders of his day; by contrast he was most comfortable (and most effective in his ministry) when hanging out with the lowest members of society - the fishermen, the tax collectors, the prostitutes.

Back to the point, what is the purpose of pain and suffering? To guilt us into a relationship with God? No, that's not the way God works. We make it so complicated, but it's really pretty simple. We live in an imperfect world, full of pain and suffering, but also full of joy if we choose to see it. My outlook on the pain and suffering is that it draws me closer to God, who is always there to wrap his loving arms around me, to comfort me and forgive me. And then he wants me to do the same thing to others. Just like we're doing for you here, Steve.

"And that's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown."

Steve - my condolences to you and your family in your hours of grief.

I am a strong believer in karma - something I gained from studying, of all things, Wiccan. They believe in something called the 3-fold law. Whatever you do in this life, good or bad, comes back to you three-fold. Growing up Catholic and currently a practicing Lutheran, I still believe very much in God and Christ and the words that the Bible contain. I don't find it against my faith in the very least to have studied the principles of wiccan - or my belief in the 3-fold rule.

I find Patrick's words refreshing as I am tired of people blaming their "Catholic upbringing" for their guilt and utter lack of faith in their lives. I'm really sorry some people had a bad Catholic experience, but my God is not a knuckle-rapping enforcer of fire and brimstone, but rather a promoter of proceeding in faith to love people, and compassionately walk the earth.

So Steve - maybe you just need to look at it another way. This isn't about you. Death isn't about the living, despite what the funeral directors tell you. It's about life. Focus positively on that one trait that your cousin had that you would most like to emulate. That's his life. That's your karma. That's what changes Fortuna's wheel. That's what comes back to you 3-fold as you enjoy a beautiful evening on a boat with your son, and the joy you put on his face as you feed the snakes.

Hi, Robert:

Thanks for you well-considered and insightful comments.

I recall an interview Malcolm Muggeridge did with William Buckley on Buckley's "Firing Line" some years back, after his conversion to Catholicism. One point he made is that the only way we learn is through suffering. C.S. Lewis, after the death of his wife ("The Problem of Pain" - have you see "Shadowlands" with Anthony Hopkins and Debra Winger?) makes the same point: Suffering is the anvil on which God's shapes us to His will.

So, it's an invitation. But it's real. Like Samson at Gaza, we embrace suffering, and triumph if we can find the purpose and meaning in its inescapable presence.

Quae nocent docent - am I right?

Patrick

I was raised Catholic but am now a quasi-practicing Methodist expat living Italy. The Italians have no qualms about combining religion and superstitions. They BELIEVE in the evil-eye and hexes and have elaborate rituals for their cure. When someone greets you asking: Come sta? (how are you?) it's considered bad luck to say you are doing well. All this is the heartland of THE religion!

Me? I believe life is hard (Peck-ism). ANYTIME it's good, even tiny-little things, you should be thankful and celebrate, unabashedly and LOUDLY. Right now I'm dancing with joy over this excellent glass of vino! WOO-WHOO!!

Hey Suzanne,

It's no coincidence that Jesus' first miracle was turning water to wine! He was just keeping the party going.

Enjoy the vino!

Robert

My condolences. We don't (or more to the point, shouldn't) grieve for those who died - if they were suffering, it has ended. But for those living with the loss, well, mere words don't suffice.

==

My position on the philosophical issues here are clear. There is no luck, no karma, no god (or as I'll say in more flippant times, No Santa Claus for Adults). There are things that happen outside - or in spite of - our control, of course. As humans we love to look for reasons, and connections, and we love to retrofit and rationalize. All of which is perfectly healthy and can serve a purpose - especially as part of the grieving process.

My uncle, who died a few years ago, was a calligrapher. Ive got a number of his things hanging in my house. The two that are relevant to this conversation (and apologies for not knowing the sources offhand, being here at work): "I will always cry a little because I miss him; I will always laugh a little because I knew him" and the real capper: "Time goes you say? Ah no, alas. Time stays. We go." The latter is half inked, half pencil - his having died before finishing it.

Well, I don't much care to have my faith reduced to a belief in "Santa Claus for Adults" because the way I've experienced it is very real. But, hey, I'm also not one to tell other people how they should live.

I promised David Murray I would use the word "fart" in a comment in this thread, just to try to bring the discussion out of such seriousness and to a less mature place. Otherwise we might lose our audience. So there. I've said it. "Fart." David Murray made me do it.

Robert: It was your idea, fartface.

Ah, no offense intended, Robert. I am very well grounded in the avenues of faith, having spent 12 years in Catholic school, alter boy, all that jazz. And no, nothing untoward ever happened to turn me away.

But nor did I ever feel - or sense or touch or experience - anything to lead me to accept that
anything beyond the bounds of earthly explanation was going on.

As a philosophy and a moral grounding it works ok, but as fact or fundamental reality, at least for me, not so much. But many people either require or desire it in their lives, for many different reasons. My parents among them. I'm cool with that.

I kinda wish people would stop killing each other in their god's name, but that's for another discussion.

In context, I believe the approriate joke would have included a reference to "going over like a fart in church" but I can forgive the transgression!

The fact that you were celebrating life and love and family when your cousin's life was ending shouldn't make you feel guilty.Those happy moments are what we cling to when someone we love dies. Someday when you're gone your son will console himself with happy memories of time on the lake with Dad. And wouldn't your cousin have been looking down on you enjoying your celebration?

The fact that you were living life to the fullest while his was ending has a kind of beautiful balance to it, for the same reasons that people like to see babies at funerals. It's a good reminder that no matter how crummy and unfair a death may be, there is life and beauty and promise all around us.

Ohhh, Steve, I'm sorry. I think that day you had was the perfect microcosm of the human experience. It's great and it sucks and nothing ever happens when you're ready for it. And all those emotions can beat you senseless but the alternative is feeling nothing. And then you'd just be...the Vice President.

(Ducking).

In any case, I'm a recovering Catholic, too, but I'll let that topic die a spiritual though guilt-ridden death.

Take care.

Sister Mary Bumptious

Steve----it's not easy to think of one of my favorite funny people in such a sad place, but it happens to everyone at some time, and it takes a certain trust to share that sort of pain with other people. Thank you for doing that, and I'm sorry for your loss.

2004 was a year of shit for me from one end to the other. I had a miscarriage in January. My dog drowned in the pool on the 4th of July. My beloved mother-in-law died on the table during heart surgery a week before Thanksgiving. The irony of that year is that I started seeing a therapist after just the miscarriage, because I was afraid I couldn't handle the grief...dead dogs and mother-in-laws were still to come for me.

The therapist admonished me not to compare my pain to others----if it sucked, it sucked in its own right, and I would eventually learn to accept the loss on its own, but never by thinking I shouldn't feel so bad because others have suffered worse.

What I took away from that was how to handle both happy and sad things--If something great happens to you, celebrate it and don't feel guilty. Your joy in life could be an inspiration to someone having a crappy time. And if something crappy happens to you, do two things: honestly grieve it, but make sure to move on as well.

I don't think we get any points in life--or help someone who's suffered--by feeling less good about something that ought to be celebrated. Sonya's comment is really important: "The best thing you can do is to cherish the good memories you have of your cousin and make sure to share them with his wife and children." That is the best way to honor his memory, as well as to help yourself heal.

OK, the meandering soapbox hour is now over---back to work for me!

See . . .this is what sucks about this blog. From my perspective, anyway.

I was gone all day today, at the funeral. I just got back, and now there are 20 unbelievable responses. And I can't respond to all of them.

It's like being in a conversation with 20 people at once, and they are all saying interesting things, and you have to carry on the conversations all at once.

But it ISN'T like that . . .because that never happens in real time! If you're in a conversation with 20 people in real life, odds are 5 of them are borderline retarded, 5 of them are just plain stupid, three of them have a screwed up world view that makes them impossible to talk to, and maybe two of them are interesting.

Out here, it's all of the good people in one place. Even David, with his gratuitous use of the "f" word.

What a terrific thread. There's so much here, I want to re-run it in Ragan Report, as a case study in the kind of conversations blogs COULD start, when thinking people participate.

Maybe I'll do just that . . . with no names attached, of course.

Steve C.

Patrick, Robert, et al:

Please don't think that I take someone else's faith for granted. I don't. I'm envious of people who have it.

At the funeral today, all the homilies and speeches had the same theme: Don't grieve. If you have faith, then you're going to see Tommy again. Tommy is in a better place. Tommy is the lucky one. It was Tommy's time to come home.

Etcetera, etcetera.

For those people who do have faith, it must be an unbelievable comfort to them, and I envy them that.

I don't have it, but that's my problem.

BUT . . . Patrick . . . the Cathlolic Church is another argument. I don't hate the Catholic Church because of some decades-old-long grudge.

I was never diddled as an altar boy (and yes, I was an altar boy). I'm not bitter because they taught me that God is a mean God, that he was nailed to a cross because of ME, that I was born with some kind of crazy "original sin," or any of that shit.

I now see, as an adult, how patently ridiculous it all is, and I'm shocked that people still fall for it, and still go to church and do the medieval chanting and such . . . . but to each his own.

My problem with the Catholic Church is RIGHT NOW.

There are so, so many areas we could explore . . . but let's take one example: You say they do more for the poor than anyone else.

What about the poor Catholics in places like Mexico and South America and Ireland, who are told that birth control is a sin against God, and as a result have five, six, seven kids they can't afford?

Is it in the Bible that birth control is bad? Did Jesus say it? No . . . the Catholic Church came up with that one on its own, and we all know why: money.

They want to create more Catholics. So, while it's an absolute sin for a non-married couple to have safe sex, or a homosexual couple to have safe sex . . . it's perfectly acceptable for a couple, as long as they married, to have a bunch of kids they can't support.

I don't remember that being in the Gospels.

You mentioned the raging sexism in the Catholic Church, so I won't bother with that. How anyone, as a citizen of the modern world, can accept that, is beyond me.

One other thing is worth mentioning: You talked about the sex scandal, and the fact that the Church knowingly shuffled hundreds if not thousands of pedophiles from church to church.

If that's not enough to get them before the UN, I don't know what is.

But the real scandal is that they STILL refuse to let priests marry. They refuse to let them live normal lives.

And why? Is it somewhere in the Bible that priests can't marry? Did Jesus say it? I don't think so.

That priests must remain unmarried is a Catholic Church thing, with nothing to do with the Bible. And why do they do it?

Because if priests marry, the Church is going to have to pay them more, because it costs money to raise a family. If priests marry, they are going to want to leave their earthly belongings to their families, instead of the church.

As with almost everything else with the Catholic Church, it comes down to not religion, or faith, but money. They have perverted the Bible, and the memory of Jesus, to fill their coffers.

I agree with you: If people would live their lives modeled after Jesus, the world would be a better place.

But where we differ is that I think the Catholic Church is about as far away from Jesus' teachings as you can possibly get.

In fact, if Jesus were around today, how much do you want to bet HE wouldn't be a Catholic?

I leave you with something a hard-core Christian said to me once. She has no love for the Catholic Church, either:

"Go into any non-Catholic Church and what do you see? A cross. Just a simple cross. Nobody's on it. But go into any Catholic Church, and what do you see? A cross with a bloody, broken Jesus on it. Why is that? Because every other Christian faith is about hope. It's about the fact that yes, Jesus suffered and died, but that's over. It's about redemption, and support. But with the Catholics, they leave Jesus ON the cross, because the entire religtion is about guilt. It's about reminding you that you fucked up, and that you're still fucking up. It's how they control people, and with them it's all about control."

Steve C.

Steve C.

Well, on the issue of birth control, Steve, most practicing Catholics in industrialized nations practice birth control, realize that the Church's official position is wrong, and receive the sacraments with a clear conscience. The problem with overpopulation among the poor and in underdeveloped countries isn't the church's ban on birth control - since many non-Catholics, here and abroad, have a problem with over-population because of lack of information and medical resources, which is, in my opinion, the problem.

I think most Catholics, including some members of the clergy, and including me, would like to see women ordained, and a married clergy, at least as an option. I also think loving and responsible pre-marital, technically "extra-marital," and homosexual sex and homosexual marriage fall well within the embrace of Christ's love. I think most Catholics I know would agree. I'm not sure where you're getting your information. You can't get a clear sense of the church from the media any more than you'd get a clear view of what average Americans think by watching those CNN shouting matches.

I haven't met a practicing Catholic in 40 years who thinks hell is a "place" you can be "sent to" or believes in some notion of "absolute mortal sin," except, perhaps, in the case of sociopathology, which might be understood better from a medical than a religious perspective.

I think you're defining the church too narrowly as the Vatican, the hierarchy, historical error, and, in some instances, the clergy. That's simply a distaste for politically corrupt and entrenched power structures. I share that distaste and your outrage.

But the real church is in the pews, just as the real America isn't in Washington, but in the citizen who believes all people are created equal, government by the consent of the governed, constitutional freedoms, and the like.

But I'd stand by my point about the church's service to the poor - no one does more. As one example, in the West, Catholic Relief Services feed half the population of Haiti. The Church is much more like Mother Teresa than you portray it, at least in my experience.

So I agree with you on the the lack of scriptural authority for a lot of the idiocy you describe, accurately, in my view. But I do differ with you on your friend's point of Catholics leaving Jesus on the Cross. At least the pews were fuller when I went last Easter than on Good Friday.

Patrick

Patrick:

Points well taken. I do agree . . . Catholics, on their own, do a lot of good. The Catholic School system is a good one. Many parishes are wonderful support systems and communities.

I'm wrong to say I hate "the Catholic Church." You said it best: I hate the "politically corrupt and entrenched power structure" that is the "official" Catholic Church.

But all those good Catholics we both know and love need to grow a set. Too many of them meekly follow the rules coming out of the Vatican. You obviously give these issues a lot of thought . . . but for every one Patrick Williams, unfortunately, there are thousands of Catholic sheep who are unwilling to stand up and question the "rules" that have been outdated since the turn of the last century.

They just simply have to ordain women, let priests marry, and knock off the bias against homosexuals.

There is a critical shortage of priests, isn't there? Where Zach goes to school (yes, he goes to a Catholic school; when you get divorced, you lose some decision-making power, and that is one battle I lost; it will be a real challenge for me, as I want to encourage him to seek spirituality, learn all he can from Jesus . . . but without succumbing to the Catholic brainwashing that still goes on) they have a TERRIFIC priest.

I've had to sit through some masses, because Zach was involved (he did a reading for one, and was a St. for All Saints Day for another), and this guy is just wonderful.

But guess what? He's leaving. He's going to Joliet, because there's a pastor there with no priest. It's his fourth move in three years.

When good priests keep getting kicked around because there aren't enough good priests, and the church still won't ordain women or allow priests to marry (which, I believe, is still out of pure greed), there's a real problem.

Of course, all of this is written with the knowledge that Steve Crescenzo arguing religion with Patrick Williams is like Truman Capote going 15 rounds with Joe Frazier.

But it won't be the first time I got my ass kicked.

Steve C.

This continues to be interesting. Patrick, here is where I disagree with you. The CATHOLIC church is against birth control, against sex outside of their definition of marriage, against homosexuality and on and on. The fact that you know many catholics who, like you, disagree with those tenets makes you wise.

It also makes you a bad catholic. They like people who play ball their way.

Holding the beliefs you do may make you a good christian and a good human being, but the church is what it is. And causes its share of problems in addition to the good works. You can't explain that away with good intentions.

As a catholic, I can't pick and choose which commandments to follow, can I? Even if most people I know believe as I believe, and agree with me, we cant just decide to ignore numbers 3,5 and 8, can we? ( side note - I challenged one of my still practicing Catholic friends to rattle off the 10 commandments - and no , I dont remember how in the world we got on that subject - and when he couldn't, he told me in no uncertain terms that well, he knows the IMPORTANT ones.)

Hey, wasn't it people en masse disagreeing with the Catholic church that got us Protestants? And still the Catholic church ambles merrily forward...

Hi, Neruda and Steve:

Well, I'd say that to be a member of the Catholic Church you should subscribe to the Creed, sometimes called the Nicene Creed - accessible easily on line. The Ten Commandments aren't in there, though I also subscribe to those. Assuming Catholics should be able to recite the Ten Commandments reveals an anti-Catholic prejudice, though I think everyone should know the Decalogue - I do.

Hey, Neruda, you know the Bill of Rights? Let's have 'em - or are you not an American?

But this other stuff about obeying all the rules rather than picking and choosing or having to leave, or the "Church" as liking lock-step obedience or my being something called a "bad Catholic" by someone you call "they."

I honestly don't know what you're referring to. It simply doesn't describe my experience or the experience of any Catholic I've ever known. It's just an anti-Catholic bias: "They demand blind obedience or you're out." That's simply not the case. I don't know where you're getting your information, though I suspect it's from former Catholics.

I would say, simply, that a Christian is someone who lives his life in the compelling memory of Christ's words and actions, and that a Catholic is a particular type of Christiian, who traces the tradition of his faith to the apostles.

All this other stuff - it's just the usual anti-Catholic crap hung on shreds of selective evidence - selected, I assume, to suport a pre-conceived point, for what reasons I wouldn't speculate. But your descriptions on the Catholic Church are alien to my experience.

My brotherly love and affection,
Patrick

The bottom line of all of this is that our intelligence, reasoning and philosophy only take us so far, then faith either is discarded or embraced.

Jesus used irony throughout the New Testament to show us how nothing is at it seems. That "we see through a glass dimly" while we're on earth. He took the old "law" and turned it on his ear. He told the Jew to love a Samaritan. He told his followers that the first will indeed be the last. The meek will rule the earth. He told riddles to get us to think.

Is it because he's mean? No. It's because he's drawing us to him - to be MORE curious. To be MORE in awe. To realize that the answers are found in him. And the best surprise? That those with faith in him will die only to wake up in a place better than we can humanly imagine. He's brilliant.

The best example of this is Joseph and his "cool coat of color." His brothers toss him in a hole, leave him for dead, and tell his dad he was eaten alive by animals. In the end is he mad? Hell, yeah. But he also admits, "Although you meant it for evil God meant it for good." It's not God who threw him in the hole. But it IS God who redeemed the whole experience by taking him to Egypt and making him king.

It's not God who causes death, he allows death so he can walk with us (and Tommy) into eternity. The story, alas, has a good ending. And that's where hope comes in.

There seems to be an unnecessary debate about the Catholic religion going on here. I think everyone understands that there is a difference between right and wrong and the fact that there is wrong in the church, any church. People are bad, have bad thoughts and do bad things, but not all of them and this doesn’t make an organization bad because of them. Like I said, once I was old enough to figure out for myself that a lot of what I was taught was silly I was okay with it. I knew that my god wouldn’t send someone to hell because they didn’t believe; even if they were some uncivilized, never heard of people in the middle of nowhere that was never taught about Jesus Christ or The Father.

I wanted to have my two daughters baptized by the church and I had to meet with the pastor of St. James Cal Sag or better know as “Monks Castle” where the monks come out at might and capture you and torture you in the basement.
He wasted no time telling me first that I needed to be married in the church and that it would cost money and then the baptisms could take place afterwards for money. I left there mad because at the time I couldn’t afford to have my children saved, but knew that he was probably just getting to the point and I was glad no more of my time was wasted. I was doing it for my Irish Catholic Grandmother anyway. I opted to have my cousin Richie (Fr. Rich) baptize them in a river in South Bend IN along with my niece.

I remember going to a funeral and my brother didn’t get up for communion and I later asked him why. He said he felt a little awkward because he didn’t really believe in the whole process and that you can’t receive if you sinned and so on and that he is more like an atheist than anything else. He did this for a few more times and I could see that he was uncomfortable just sitting there while the whole very Catholic family was receiving the Holy Eucharist. I told him if he didn’t believe then why would you care about eating a little wafer thing. He’s been eating Christ ever since.

It’s easy to debate religion because most people have different views and different faiths. I have no religion but I will always claim to be a part time Catholic. I teach my kids right from wrong and I openly talk to them about why we don’t go to church.
Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.
Split a piece of wood; I am there.
Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
I believe that you need no church but you only need to believe. God is everywhere, not just in a church where you have to pay money to hear the same gospels over and over and over and over. Church is the only place that repeatedly makes me sick to my stomach and make me want to faint. (Yes I was also an alter boy.)

There is a Baptist church a mile from my house that is huge! The guy that delivers UPS at my work is real big in that church but only for political reasons. This church has two jet planes that are use to travel to Monday night football games. The lowest salary is 70k and they are trying to buy the local theater across the street for $12 million in order to have more parking for more patrons who will give more money. Separate church and state and make churches pay taxes already.

Now for whatever church you belong to there will be rules. I believe these rules were put in place because people were getting out of control. There were some people out there that decided in order to be a more civilized society that there would have to be rules and fear. You can see even today that laws, the death penalty and prison just isn’t enough to keep people on the strait and narrow. But the fear of suffering for eternity kept most of us from living the life of crime or living without a conscience.

Wow I’ve rambled on and on about this but it’s difficult to make a quick point about this subject. I don’t fear death because I think I’m a good person. Even if I like the neighbors sport car or took some printer paper home from work. My God doesn’t punish he forgives, so there can’t be a hell.

There were a lot of good points made here and I think it’s pretty wild how Steve’s feelings of Fortuna's Wheel turned into a conversation about Catholics and religion.

Ah, the power of a well-written blog.

Just have to say to Eileen that you summarized my Christian experience better than I could summarize it myself. That's what keeps me engaged (to use a phrase we're all familiar with) in my spiritual journey.

I thought I would keep my trap shut on the subject, but I just can't.

I love how those who don't attend church justify it by saying "God is everywhere" - this is true. The church has those that God has not and God has those that the Church has not...this is also very true.

In the same breath you say every church has rules, and this is also true. One of those rules is to attend church. "They" didn't make up these rules, Christ outlines the need to worship with others very clearly in Scripture.

Pray at home, and see what feeling you get. Now pray and sing in the company of the church on Sunday and tell me it doesn't change the experience for you. You are meant to be cradled in the arms of your fellow Christians while you pray to the one who gives and who has given you everything. Christian worship isn't only about praying to God or asking forgiveness...it's about living the life the way Christ would live...the ever famous WWJD. It's about the constant reminder and acknowledgement of your faith. And that involves public worship.

And don't reduce it to money. Nothing is free. The church still has to pay the bills. Mine gives me a monthly statement including the mortgage, electricity, pastor's salary, gas...their doors are always open whether they receive their monthly collection needs or not. There are still volunteers for Sunday School, there are still weekly suppers before Lenten and Advent services. Find me another institution who serves you if you don't pay. You're not paying for Christ's love, you're paying to keep the doors open for collective public worship.

Steve, my condolences on your loss. Maybe it will help to think about things this way...

Sometimes, bad things happen. I believe that life is what you make of it and that the human condition is what WE ALL make of it. Heaven and Hell are both here on earth, right now, made by us humans. So in a way, on the day your cousin died, you were experiencing both Heaven (your glorious day with your son) and Hell (the unspeakable loss of your cousin.)

Take comfort in the fact that to me and all your loyal readers, you are a part of our "Heaven" because through your blog you bring us valuable information and pleasure in reading your witty writings.

So don't feel guilty; just go on being you as best you can!

Oh - and for the record - I think it's awful that they wanted you to pay money to have your children baptized...I had two boys baptized Catholic - I was never asked for a dime. I think you might have had a bad experience with a bad church.

It took me a long time to feel comfortable in my own "Christian skin" for a variety of reasons, and I am now glad to say that I've found a home in a really great Lutheran church (I converted because of my husband). We established roots in 4 churches before we found one we actually liked. It's not automatic.

And Ann Coulter calls the liberal media Godless - just LOOK at this discussion lighting up Steve's blog. Great discussion everyone! No go forth and love someone today!

I' ve been trying to go forth and love Cindy since 6:14 a.m. this morning . . . but she's having none of it.

What the hell good is it to work from home with your wife if you're not having sex constantly?

This IS, by far, my favorite discussion thread ever on this blog. Not only has it been intersting . . . but it's really helped me get through the last couple of days.

So thanks, everyone.

Steve C.

Following up with Patrick:
No Catholic prejudice here – although I guess prejudicial people never see themselves that way, eh? I understand the point you make with the Bill of Rights question. Touche.

But following through with that example, in an earlier note you argued that the Catholic church is not just the Vatican and the hierarchy et al, just as “America” isn’t just the government (but rather the people). But the government *is* America to the people on the outside looking in. The policies and practices and “strategery” coming from Washington is what, at the end of the day, affects people. Just as we view (or are encouraged to view) Korea as Kim Jong Il, Iraq as Saddam Hussein. Simple examples, yes, and nothing close to reality, but there you go.

I won’t speak on behalf of other Catholics – just myself. The thoughts and opinions I’ve expressed here are mine alone, and come from my own 12 years of Catholic education, and more years than that of dutiful service. And in my own experience, obeying rules is a cornerstone to the whole shootin’ match. And this goes beyond Catholicism of course. One reason organized religions exist is to keep people in line. Otherwise, it seems to me, they would not need to be “organized.”

Failure to follow the rules used to mean excommunication, or a withholding of the sacraments as a measure of control. In our now slightly more enlightened times, we have a kind of peer pressure compliance – or the oft referred to mix of threats and guilt. That this does not apply to you and all the Catholics you personally know does not make it a reality for the billion other Catholics out there.

I am legitimately happy that *your* experience with the church has differed from the norm. It is surely to your benefit. But my suspicion is that most folks are not as sophisticated in their thought processes and considerations.

Very enjoyable discussion!

I on the other hand think this discussion has caused my valve to close quite violently. Your cousin's death is a reminder that life is too short and that we should enjoy and savor every minute that we can with the people we love. So Cindy as disgusting as it may seem you may want to give in to Steve's grotesque demands.
Don't forget Steve, Fortuna is a capricious sprite and though the cycle may be spinning downward now it should find it's way upward soon.
If your cousin was anything like you I'm sure he filled 80 years of good living in 37 years. My condolences to you, and your cousin's wife and children. They are the ones who are probably suffering the most.

Patrick,

As you know, my father, Larry Ragan, was a devout Catholic. In fact, he devoted much of his free time to editing a Catholic magazine and becoming a fairly well known thinker in the Chicago Catholic community.

So, as you can imagine, Catholicism runs deep in me. I have become used to the usual run-of-the-mill criticism reflected in the above postings. And, as you point out, most of that criticism comes from Cathlolics who no longer have any real connection to the church.

For example, I would have to go back 40 years to remember the last time any priest or nun even mentioned Hell or guilt or Jesus suffering for one's sins. When I walk into Old St. Pat's on a Sunday morning, I see a Catholic community filled with joy, a sunny optimism about life and love and doing good in the community. Absent from that community is all of the stuff Steve alludes to in his posting.

On the other hand, critics of the Catholic Church have every right to attack Rome for its policies on birth control, the way its handled the sexual malfeasance of its priests and the prohibition on marriage for priests. And maybe they have the right to attack Catholics for trying to have it both ways--to worship in a church that advocates the above. Putting it another way, how do we Catholics reconcile our love for the church and all of the loving, amazing experieces we have had there and the bad decisions by our various Popes?

One very inept way of putting it is this: For Catholics, all religion is local.

Take the case of my childhood church in Hazel Crest, Illinois. For most of my life, this church was dominated by white-collar families, all white, all conservative and generally intolerent of people different than themselves. When blacks began moving into our town (and thus our church) in the 1980's, the scene was set for a battle between the older residents, the parents of my friends, and the unwelcome newcomers.

Into this scene walks Fr. Len Dubi, a Chicago priest who had already built a reputation for his radical politics and his unstinting work on behalf of the poor. Over the next 20 years, this one Catholic priest was responsible for bringing the white and blacks of Hazel Crest together and creating a community of faith dedicated to social issues. When he finally left the church two years, ago the pews were packed with tearful blacks, whites, Hispanics who had seen their lives transformed by this one man.

During those 20 years, no one harangued the parishoners about birth control or abortion. No one talked about burning in hell or the evil nature of man. Len Dubi had one message: we're all God's creatures and therefore we have a commitment to love and help one another.

Fr. Dubi would have had a good laugh about Steve's belief that Catholic initatives are only concerned with generating cash. His was one of the poorest parishes on the South Side. There was very little money to be found anywhere, but that poverty of means never got in the way of his incredible accomplishments.

I could go on with dozens of examples of Catholic love and charity, of the church's openess and commitment to its community, of its good fellowship, of the amazing intellects of the brothers who taught me at Quigley South and their goodness and dedication to steering me on the right path. But I have given up trying to argue with Catholic critics because they refuse to see the shades of gray. To them, it always come backs to the Crusades, birth control, abuse by priests, abortion and the way they were treated by nuns in the 50's and early 60's.

The church is a human institution, which means it is both good and bad--just like all of us. Sometimes we act the part of the hero and sometimes we play the villain.

But, sadly, most of our critics, for reasons that are basically self-justifying, refuse to venture into that gray area because they would lost something very precious--the certainty of their own bias.

So, in many ironic ways, the critics become the very image of the Catholic intolerance they deplore.

Mark Ragan

To conclude my comments on this topic and return to the reference to Fortune's Wheel that launced it, one example of Fortune's Wheel spinning up for me was 25 years ago this week, coincidentally, when I met Larry Ragan for my job interview. He said: "Tell me about yourself." I said, "Well, I'm a liberal Democrat, a practicing Catholic, and a former English professor. My hobby is reading." He said, "Me, too. Take a desk." That was a good day.

Patrick

Mark:

First you write:

>>>>Critics of the Catholic Church have every right to attack Rome for its policies on birth control, the way its handled the sexual malfeasance of its priests and the prohibition on marriage for priests. And maybe they have the right to attack Catholics for trying to have it both ways--to worship in a church that advocates the above.>>>But, sadly, most of our critics, for reasons that are basically self-justifying, refuse to venture into that gray area because they would lost something very precious--the certainty of their own bias.<<<<

Well now, sir . . . which is it? As someone who was born and raised Catholic and who has always followed the dealings of the Catholic church closely, do I have the right to criticize it, as you first said?

Or, is my criticism self-justified whining?

You see, we do NOT disagree. You choose to focus on the good, because organized religion is important to you. I don't begrudge you that.

But anyone who writes off criticism of the Catholic Church----especially after the priest-abuse scandal, and especially in this day and age where they discriminate against gays, divorcees, women, and anyone who chooses to not bring children into a madly overpopulated world---as self-serving whining has his head firmly in the sand, I would say.

Please don't fire me. I need the dough.

Steve C.

Patrick:

That is a great Larry story. Remind me to one day tell you about one of my first dealings with Larry . . . it involved some unsolicited tugging in the bathroom.

Steve C.

“Now pray and sing in the company of the church on Sunday and tell me it doesn't change the experience for you.”
__________________________________________

I did for twenty years and I said how it makes me feel ill and faint.

Steve,

If you read my posting carefully, with an open mind, you'd see that I said the following:

That critics of the Catholic Church usually resort to one of the following:

They attack the church for its policies on abortion, birth control and the celibacy of priests, fulling recognizing (because they have been told repeatedly by people like me) that these issues policies are opposed by the great majority of American Catholics;

Or they fall back on personal anecdotes from the 50's and 60's of a bygone church that focused on Christ's suffering, the tortures of hell, etc.,

Gone from their argument is the other side of the story--that Catholics in America live a religion that is predominently local and that very rarely resembles the church you describe.

Generally speaking, it is a tolerent. loving, charitable, nondiscriminating place where people come together to worship and do good works. The church is made up of thousands of parishes, each with vastly different personalities. It's impossible to generalize about such an institution. But you do so with abandon.

So yes, you can criticize. You can criticize as much as you want. But it would lend credence to your argument if you stopped turning everything into one-dimensional sterotypes.

Your statement about how all things Catholic are concerend with money is ludicrous. As Patrick points out, Catholic Charities and other Catholic institutions are mini-Peace Corps, financing anti-poverty programs around the globe.

It's not your criticism of the Church that bothers me, it's the simple-mindedness of your generalizations, the lack of recognition that there is another story.

When you leave these realities out, you seem to suggest that American Catholics are all dolts, led blindly by money-grubbing priests whose only passion in life is to "diddle" your children.
Do you really believe this? Why is it that so-called liberal minded intellectuals feel free to say outrageoous things about Catholics while representing themselves as tolerent, open-minded people?

Steve,

There you go again. You are simply incapable of making a statement that isn't a gross exaggeration.

In my church, Old St. Pat's, there is a church-sponsored support group of gays and divorcees.

Fr. Dubi was a Catholic priest who faught his entire life against racial and sexual discrimination, as have thousands of priests throughout the country.

And for every child-abusing priest there are 10, 20 or more priests who have spent a lifetime devoted to helping the poor. Hell, some of them are teaching your child for heavan's sake.

And while I'm on the subject of Catholic education, what about all of the nationally recognized Catholic schools that devote half their budgets to free tuition for the poor and have no Catholic requirement at all? How does that square with your smug generalizations?

Steve, are you physically incapable of recognizing gray? Must everything be either/ or? Do you really believe in the distortions you paint?

AN: Well - I always said attending Catholic mass was kind of like an aerobic workout: stand-up, sit down, kneel, stand-up, sit down, walk up to the altar, walk back, kneel, stand up...

I'm sorry your shared experience wasn't the same as mine. As a child I found church exhausting because, well, I was a child.

But as an adult, I find it liberating. I walk out of there feeling a sense of renewal. If you felt so ill and faint...why did you never find another place to worship? To walk away from organized religion because of your experience in one location is like saying "I don't like hamburgers because I didn't like them from Burger King" - like I said, my family and I have been church hoppers for the last 6 years until I finally found a pastor that made sense to me and a Sunday School program that made sense for my kids.

Mark:

If you would read MY various comments carefuly, you would see that I agree with you, regarding local Catholicism. I said that many parishes do wonderful things for their community. I understand that. I talked about how powerful and effective the Catholic school system is. I know, because I benefited from it, at a time when you couldn't send your kids to Chicago public schools. THere are THOUSANDS of terrific Catholic priests out there who have managed to help MILLIONS of people. I know that, and I've said it.

But to separate the local Catholicism as it's practiced in the streets from the heinous behavior and policies of the overall "Catholic Church" is a tad ridiculous, isn't it?

Especially since those policies coming out of Rome DO affect the grassroots Catholicism---because they result in a lack of priests, a need to funnel funds into the Vatican, and other things.

Let's say you are a liberal Democrat. But you live in a city with a Republican mayor. But he's a good Republican. And he is doing great things for the city. And you like him.

Does that mean you can't criticize George Bush?

Steve C.

Mark:

I posted before I read your second comment. That's terrific that some churches have support groups for divorcees and gay people. TERRIFIC!! It also goes against Catholic Doctrine.

What you're saying, and what I agree with, is that the local grassroots Catholic organizations do great things IN SPITE of the official Catholic CHurch, not because of it.

And all I'm saying is, it doesn't have to be that way. If the "Catholic Church" (and by that I mean the Powers that Be in Rome, not the individual parishes or individuals) would climb into the 21st Century, the Church could do so much MORE good.

It's great that so many Catholics are willing to ignore the rules and teachings of their own church to help their communities and live like Jesus would live . . . but isn't it also kind of silly that they have to?

Steve C.

Up here in Lincoln Square, we have Catholics of many backgrounds, as you know: Mexican Americans, but other Hispanic people as well: Ecuadoreans, Guatamalans, for example, and a lot of Filiponos, as well as the minority of Greeks and Germans who, I understand, originally settled the neighborhood. And Asians - mainly Korean-Americans. (Outside our apartment on Lawrence and Western the street sign reads: "Honorary Seoul Blvd.")And some same-sex couples, but more as you head south to Addison.

And they all come together, at places with unusual names like "Saint Matthias/The Transfiguration of Christ"(blended parish), or "Saint Ben's." I've noticed that commercially, they're pretty ethnic and self-focused, in their restaurants and clothing stores, for instance. But in the Church, all those barriers drop and everyone acts pretty much all the same. As Mark said, a universal ("catholic") church with local interests.

I hope women are ordained soon - in the way suffragettes raised American consciousness on the need for full citizenship for women as expressed by the right to vote. I think that will happen - along with a married clergy - in the next papacy. I think Joseph Ratzinger is the last in a line of popes educated pre-Vatican II.

Finally, I don't think the two identifying marks of a Catholic - asking for forgiveness and helping the poor - are exclusively a matter of individual choice. I think the institution has done a good job of that, as wel: apologizing for past sins and paying reparations for the priest scandal, apologizing for and condeming anti-Semitism, and so forth.

My brother John gave up a highly lucrative career at GM, and most of his pension, when he hit 50, six years ago. Since then, he and his wife have been working in S. Africa, Lesotho, Botswana - on the AIDS pandemic, running an orphanage, etc. It's through Catholic Relief Services. You simply have to have some kind of organization to structure these services, and the Church does a good job of that - and not for money. I mean, they really do do it for free. And, John tells me, so do thousands of others. I mean, giving the first street person you meet every day all the change in your pocket is a good idea and we should do that, but it's not a solution.

Why do you think, Steve and Mark, this particular topic has sparked such debate? Does it indicate an interest for a forum on workplace spirituality? Do you know a newsletter publisher? What would Larry do?

Gone but not forgotten, Alden Wood - "Pax Vobiscum,"

Patrick

My poor friend,

The "overall Catholic Church" IS the local church.

It's not the church of Rome. That's my point. The priests who teach Zach; the Catholic parishoners who fan out across the globe to feed and clothe the poor; the Father Dubis of the world who fight for their communities--that IS the church.

You're engaing in the same argument that would condemn all Americans as war-mongerers because their president launched a war against Iraq.

Steve, could you imagine condeming the Jewish faith as a violent, money-grubbing religion led by Palestinian-hating religious zealots?

Of course not. As the smart guy that you are, you would admit to the amazing complexity of the issue. So why do you do this with Catholics?

That's my only point. But, hell, we can agree to disagree. If only so we can get some work done.

Besides, you're fired!

Love,

MArk

I have to say that for what ever reasons the church had for not correcting all of the bad points brought up here about Catholics is the main reason I lost a lot of faith in the Catholic institution or organization. I use what I was taught to live life the way I do and make the choices I do.

Mark,
I’m that that old; I’m talking about the 70’s and 80’s here. The priest that tried to extort money from me was in 1996. This same priest in 06’ also kicked my entire family out of the church after accusing someone of urinating on a grave stone which never happened. My great aunt and a cousin died in the same week and the services were scheduled one week apart. The accusation came after the first service (my aunt) and my cousins service had to be at a house were my cousin Fr. Rich performed the service.

82’ Brother Stokes the freshman / sophomore dean would come into the locker room and put his chin on his hand and watch us all shower. Everyone knew why but nothing was ever done about it. Yuck!

Steve I’m sure you know of Sr. Catherine. She actually drew blood from a girl’s cheek by digging her nails into her face. She bruised the back of my legs with the wooden pointer and the last day of sixth grade she went around and hit everyone on the back with her stick to make sure she got everyone. This last act was in a joking manner but her point was she wasn’t afraid to take anyone out. That was in 1979.

It’s for all the reasons above and a few of my own that keeps my children from such abuse and harassment and brainwashing. What I don’t have is any recent examples of how Catholics teach today.

When my mother had medical problems in the mid 70’s and lost what would have been the sixth child in the family, my sisters went to my grandparent’s house and my brothers and I went and lived with our aunts Sr. Eli Nita & Sr. Rita Cecile for a month.
Okay so I’m beginning to see my problem with the Catholic religion now. Therapy in the form of this blog I can now see I have issues that need resolving.

Not to say that my wife and I haven’t talked about trying out a few different religions for the kids sake. But for now I feel that I live a good life and I won’t be punished for it. If my God demands that I pray with a bunch of people I don’t know in order to be forgiven and be received at the pearly gates, I’ll get a new God. Words, thoughtfulness, love, kindness, honesty should get me there in my mind.
I can’t be faulted because one Bishop “Irenaeus” in the 2nd century decided which four gospels would be part of the bible and that there would only be four gospels because of the four sections of the earth (or something like that) then had all others destroyed Please!

Okay, I have to look like I actally did some work arond here today. Oh wait no I don't they took all of my work away from me to save money and I just sit here now waiting until they realise they don't really need me sitting here.

Rebecca, I appreciate your thoughts and your point but I'm not really looking to be saved or born again. I'm merely adding my random thoughts and experiences to this very, very long thread.

AN:

Bad experiences all--and experiences that led to a logical choice for you to exit the church.

But for every nightmare recalled by a Catholic there are millions of other tales of charity and love.

Would you assail all Jews because your Jewish boss treated you poorly? Would you condemn all blacks because a gang in your neighborhood was responsible for beating up your sister? Of course not.

Unfortunately, it is the natural tendency among all of us to believe that our experience proves the larger point.

It rarely does. And that is really my only issue with the anti-Catholic crowd.

Mark

AN: I would add, to Mark's comments, that the identifying act of a Christian, in addition to service to the poor, is a capacity for forgiveness, based on Christ's mandate from the Cross. That's my greatest short-coming, among a virtual wealth of opportunitites for self-improvement.

A priest-mentor of mine, whom I brought this issue (my incapacity for forgiveness)to, once told me a story about a soldier in the army of Alexander the Great. The soldier ran away in battle and was brought before Alexander, who asked him: "What's your name, soldier?" The soldier said: "It's the same as yours. My name is also Alexander." Alexander the Great said, "Change your behavior, or change your name."

That's what the priest told me: "You call yourself a Christian and can't forgive - especially can't forgive people who have hurt you? Change your behavior or change your name."

Best wishes,

Patrick

My $.02: I quit the Church years ago because I felt like a hypocrite calling myself part of an organization I so vehemently disagreed with on so many issues. Many of my friends and family who feel the same way on those issues do not feel like hypocrites and thus stayed Catholics. Nothing wrong with that, it's their choice -- just as my choice was my choice.

But for those who would say only bitter ex-Caths say we can't in good conscience remain in the Church because of its positions, I must tell you that not one week ago I was driving behind a car with a bumpersticker that read "You cannot be pro-Choice and Catholic".

Um...fine.

Hurrah, Meredith!

I once saw a bumper sticker that said:

"You cannot be gay and Catholic . . . unless you're a priest."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah

Patrick, I like that story about Alexender the Great a lot.

My dad, Nicolas the Terrible, had a similar approach. After screwing up, he would say:

"Change your behavior or I'll change your face."

Not as Christian, certainly, but VERY effective.

Steve C.

Meredith, you are an angel, a messenger of insight, but please read Mark and me more closely and not generalize from a worst-case specific, re: the bumper sticker. (Like the episode of "Seinfeld" where Elaine steals Puddy's Jesus fish. Or Letterman's joke that if Michael Jackson abuses one more boy we'll give him his own parish. Those are, actually, very funny, in my opionion.)

Steve, I love you, you know that. You're the only teacher and writer better than me (How's your health?) that I know of (well, there's Rob Friedman on the teaching front and, to some extent, David Murray on writing. Damned specialists.) But if we were gay and our wives were dead - well, you know.

Want to resolve these diagreements into humor.

I believe it's Dante who writes at the end of the Divine Comedy - and I believe it because I just looked it up - "In la sua voluntade es nostra pace": "In whose will is our peace." A reply to Meredith. Not always a matter of our choice. Often, a submission to God's will, which somes to us in prayer - silence, stillness, solitude, coolness, darkenss. Hard, these days.

Then, a rabbi, a priest and a minister walked into a bar and said: "Do you have Steve's blog on-line?" And the bartender says either," No, but of you hum a few bars," or: "That's four beers with a Cubs-losing streak chaser," or something like that.

Patrick

Steve,
Even though I'm new to writing salutations here on Hallucinations, please accept my deepest sympathy.

Any age is too young to pass, but it has an extra sting when it is someone so young.

It's trite and corny but "life does go on". Our mortality defines us and makes us stronger. So don't you dare feel guilty that you were taking in the splendor of everything around you when you got the news.

No, I don't believe God is angry, in fact quite the opposite. If he was angry at us he wouldn't bring us home.

AN: Not trying to suggest that you get saved or born again or whatever the fanatics are calling it these days. You made the comment so I directed my answer to you...I wasn't trying to pin you down or anything.

There's so many people talking about the bad in religion these days, and not a lot talking about the good. I personally don't criticize anyone for NOT going to church or practicing a faith, but I sure get an earful and a raised eyebrow from those who don't when I tell them I do.

I'm merely pointing out to you and to everyone on the thread that to limit your opinion and potentially your experience of something as big as religion to just that one church, that one priest, that one church family is a shame.

If we treated everything else in life, say parenting, to the same fate, I would think that all dads are alcoholics. Or marriage...I would think that all marriages are doomed to two years of realizing you made a big mistake. And so on, and so on. But yet, I got older and had children knowing all dads are not alcholics; and after my first marriage failed, I find myself married again to a wonderful man (please don't tell him I said that). Why should we treat our faith any differently? Faith is one of the most brilliant things that sets us apart from the animals...well, that, and the opposable thumb.

Steve,

So those gays who choose to work within the church, who have brought about changes in their parishes, they should feel foolish when they see your funny bumper sticker?

Maybe their decision to remain Catholic is actually proof that there is something worth fighting for--something that makes reform worth the wait.

What you argue and what you teach in your admiration for that bumper sticker is really just another form of bigotry. True, it's a bigotry that is now in vogue. And it's so very easy. Like shooting fish in a bucket. It's far harder to see all of the infinite complexities behind the church.

The Democratic Party was the party that ended the Jim Crow laws and passed the Voting Rights Act, but it was also the party of Strom Thurmond during the 1940's

And now it stands in direct opposition to the GOP's attempts to ban gay marriage.

Institutions do change, and they change from those who work from within.

Mark

I would add to Mark's comments on bigotry, that if you take any of the diversity categories (with which I am in full agreement): (race, gender, sexual orientation -GLTB- national origin, physical ability, veteran status, and so forth) and write this sentence: "I am a recovering x", You'll realize that the last permissible bigotry in America is anti-Catholic bigotry. It's the only permissible "x."

I won't tolerate it, and I'm sorry for my in ability to clarify why that is wrong. It simply strikes me as un-American somehow.

Patrick

Mark's reference to Strom Thurmond, the last "Dixiecrat" segregationist presidential candidate (though there was George Wallace in '68 and '72) triggered a clarifiyng memory about bigotry as un-American.

It wasn't only the Jews and blacks that the vomitous Ku Klux Klan went after. It was also the "papists." So - especially if economic times get tough and scape-goats start appearing in the commentary of the Right (Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc.) - a plea for mutual tolerance.

Can any of you draw? Here's my cartoon idea. The pope is on a commercial airplane seated next to a young woman, and the pope says: "Me? Since last April. How long have you been an aerobics instructor?"

K. Thanks. Bye.

Patrick

Mark!

Did you drown your sense of humor in a vat of Holy Water? . . . The bumper sticker thing was just a JOKE!!!! ha ha ha, a joke!! I don't have any "admiration" for it. I just think it was funny . . . and that it captures the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church pretty well.

You do know that, smack dab in the middle of the pedophile scandal, the Church released a paper condemning same-sex marriages, and homosexuality in general, right?

I mean, that's just FUNNY. Talk about a Tin Ear.

Rebecca . . . I agree that too many people are bashing religion these days. It's because we, as a country, have let the rednecks and the assholes lay claim to religion.

I mean, My God, Barack Obama gives a speech saying Democrats need to address religious issues . . . . and he gets slammed for "pandering" to Republicans and the religious right? That is just sick.

Patrick . . . you're a much better writer than David Murray, and almost as good a speaker as Rob Friedman.

Don't sell yourself short.

Steve C.

WOW, and I mean this sincerely, this is really interesting and educational. Not having grown up Catholic or even really having any Catholic friends (mostly a Presbyterian/Mormon neighborhood), I watch on the sidelines of such discussions with a mixture of awe and pure fascination. I also appreciate that, while heated, such a lively discussion has commenced 99.9% without people going on the attack---mostly just vigorously exchanging ideas and opinions.

Someone back there in the thread mentioned how Jesus would not care what religion one is, whether you're Catholic or not, etc. You can throw Mary into that crowd as well. "The BVM" (as one Catholic educator referred to her in an email to me) didn't seem to care that I'm not Catholic, but still was a presence for me during some rough times a few years ago. Don't ask how I know---just I knew it was her. So this non-Catholic----maybe a Catholic sympathizer, as some of my friends call me---did what I could to remember her: named my 1st daughter after her and got a big tattoo of the Immaculate Heart of Mary on my shoulder, and added the feet of Fr. Mychal Judge (the 9/11 priest) beneath it. No doubt one day if I'm in a car wreck & found unresponsive, I'll be given last rights anyway.

Wow, this has brought up a lot of old Catholic school memories of me in my beanie and pleated skirt uniform having to stick my nose in a slightly too high circle on the blackboard for 30 minutes for chewing gum. I got my daily exercise in Mass doing the "Stand-up, Sit-down, Fight-Fight-Fight" cheers. And still remember the Pope's phone number as Eck-um Spirit Two-Two-O.
Also remember a non-religious neighbor who sent his under achieving boy to Catholic school because it was better than the public school. The boy suddenly became very good in math. When his Mom asked him if the Catholic religion was motivational to his studies he said, "Hell yes, didn't you see that poor bloody guy they hung on the plus sign?"

Mark, Rebecca, and Robert, you all make great points….But! I view religion in a more simple way. I do not feel I will be dammed for not following God the way I was brought up or taught to. To me all religions were created by man not God. Jesus preached and taught what is good, great and wrong. Those words were written down and then translated long after Jesus left to sit by his Father’s side. Just as people interpret the Koran to justify murdering people in the name of their god, I don’t feel that words from a couple thousand years ago, plus all of the new crap thrown in like don’t eat meat on Friday’s, ok I guess yes you can, no, yes. I don’t feel that I have to live the perfect life to make it into heaven. I can call myself a Christian because I believe I can without permission from the church. I was taught that I sin constantly and therefore I will be dammed. I take the Lords name in vain with no ill intent and I don’t feel like I have to go to a little booth and tell a priest all of my dirty secrets because he’s bored and wants to hear about my impure thoughts.

I have my own faith! That is what I chose to do with my religion. I live in Knoxville TN in the Bible belt and I see people vote a county dry and then drive to the next to buy their booze. People have put themselves on a pedestal for going to Honduras to help for two years but they use some of the money they raised to buy a new car and a new roof for their house.

I’m a great father a great husband a great alcoholic (just kidding) because I was taught by my father to work hard and take care of your family. I didn’t give up on all aspects of my life, but a small part of my life. It was a conscious educated decision. I wasn’t only taught by the church but many people, including everyone here. I don’t look down on Catholics or any religion, I admire you all of you for having such a strong bond and faith in something you believe in. I just think if you’re going to be part of a religion that preaches that you can do no wrong, when I do so much wrong in their eyes, that I am correct in leaving that religion. I should stop pretending that I am good enough to live up to the standards of the Catholic Church. I will not sin every day just because I can be forgiven. I feel that I would be living a lie. Call it my own religion “The First Honest and the Not So Pure Church of God” Where you can swear and drink guilt free without having to say three Hail Mary’s to be forgiven. Just ask God for forgiveness and it shall be done. Why?...because I say so, just like someone else made up a lot of rules for all religions, I make up some of my own.

I guess I kind of feel like I have to justify my way of thinking which is difficult to do on a blog with so much to say. But its fun trying and I appreciate all of the comments.

Laurel, I know what you mean about a heated discussion without people attacking one another. I frequent a message board about Odyssey Vans where people can get extremely pissed off about someone’s oil type suggestion.

Everyone’s comments are filled with respect and with the knowledge that these are our opinions and beliefs.

Amen!

P.S. If you have an Odyssey van this is the best source of information for any car. www.Odyclub.com I sold my van because I needed something bigger to pull my boat but I still go here to help people because it has helped me so much.

Thanks everyone for your candid and respectful views. I do think life experience and personal reflection - and public debate - are avenues to faith.

I also think a lot of really smart people have given their lives to these topics and have some genuine insights.

From a Catholic persepctive, if anyone really wants to know what the Church teaches officially, it's in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, published in the '90s. The first catechism in 400 years (since the Council of Trent), and written by a commission headed, at the time, by Joseph Ratzinger, who, I see, has since changed his name.

The greatest Catholic theologian of the 20th century - maybe since Aquinas, is Hans Kung, whose "On Being Christian" is the classic text.

More recently, up here in Chicago, Northwestern University history professor and Pulitzer Prize Winner Garry Wills brings his depth of scholarship in an accessible way to "Why I Am a Catholic."

For your beach-reading pleasure.

Patrick

Wow! What an amazing thread of comments. As a loyal follower of Steve's, I couldn't help but chime in on this subject.

I, too, was raised Catholic and went to Catholic grade school. I was even an alter girl (yep, I went to a church that was OK with that -- but only because there weren't enough boys to do it). I often look back fondly on the education I received and the experiences I gained.

Anyway, now that I'm married I've since closed the door on those days and found a new home in an Assemblies of God Church. It's one of those churches that Steve mentions in an earlier post -- with just a simple cross. It IS a place that focuses on hope and the life we have to look forward to. BUT it is also a place swarming with politics and yuck and just overall crazy stuff. EVERY church is, but usually people just refuse to see it. Besides places of worship, churches are businesses with budgets and Boards and committees. No church is perfect, no matter what the denomination.

With that being said, however, I'm happy to be free from the Catholic church. It's drowning in traditions that will be the death of it if leaders don't make changes. In general (I realize there are some exceptions), it lacks the tolerance and understanding needed to tackle many modern-day issues. I'm in a much better place now and truly understand what it means to worship God and walk as a Christian should.

Steve, I've found my new (non-Catholic) church home and I hope you do too someday. Because ultimately, faith is the only constant in life.

Keep up the good work! I love your writing!

Wow, something like 68 posts, took me more than a day to read everything, and nobody even mentioned the Circle of Life and the Lion King once.

As Bill Cosby once said, "The past is a ghost, the future a dream and all we ever have is now."

Steve said: "I agree that too many people are bashing religion these days. It's because we, as a country, have let the rednecks and the assholes lay claim to religion."

You are absolutely right about that...and by 'right' I of course mean 'left'.

AN: "I’m a great father a great husband a great alcoholic (just kidding)"

I almost hurled water all over my keyboard over this...loving that response!

"written by a commission headed, at the time, by Joseph Ratzinger, who, I see, has since changed his name."

Love this, Patrick----do you do stand-up? =)

I do, Laurel. Do you draw? I've got some ideas for cartoons about the pope. In one, he's at the U.N. with Bush, Chirac, Putin, etc., and he's got a name tag on that says, "Hi. My name is Benedict XVI. What's yours?"

And on his cassock, on the shoulder, it says, "The North Slope."

Patrick

There are many jokes about my chosen denomination (Baptist, but please don't get me started), but this is the one I always remember:

Why don't Baptists believe in premarital sex?

Because it might lead to dancing.

Mehodists think that, to get into heaven, you have to bring a covered dish.

Alas, no, Patrick. No drawing skills. Like your cartoon ideas, though!

I always enjoy a good turn of phrase or something that's really funny, even if it's politically/socially on the edge or making fun of me. I just appreciate good verbal & written skills.

Case in point---I first met Steve C at a seminar in Frisco 3 years ago about this time of year. I had just gotten finished with a classic "What Happens in Vegas Stays in Vegas" 4 day Bacchanalian blowout with a big group of girls in Sin City, and the plan was to pick up the Frisco seminar "on my way home" to Tacoma. Met Steve at registration, still very dehydrated and exhausted from the previous days' activities. Happened to mention that I'd been in Vegas. I lined up four Diet Cokes at my conference seat in the way-back of the room and would've mainlined them if I had any IV tubing. BAM, first question I asked, Steve said, "Yes, and that's Laurel, she's been on a 4-day bender in Vegas. Now what was your question?" You either love a person or hate them after an incident like that. =)

To know Steve is to love him, Laurel.

A man goes into a confessional and tells the priest, "I met the most beautiful woman this week-end and we made love all night."

And the priest says: "Well, that's understandable. Just say three Hail Mary's."

And the man says: "What's a Hail Mary"?
And the priest says: "What kind of Catholic are you?"

The man says, "I'm not a Catholic."
The priest asks: "Then why are you telling me this?"

The man says: "Because I'm telling everyone."

This is a variation on a joke everyone in Chicago has heard many times, but for those of you who don't live in the world's greatest city:

The Pope, Mayor Daley, and President Bush are in a boat on Lake Michigan, it springs a leak, and there's only one life preserver.

Bush suggests: "Let's take a vote among the three of us to see who gets the life preserver."

Bush gets four votes, but Daley wins, eight to two.

Patrick

phew! what a thread!

my condolences on the loss of your cousin.

all religions have their faults. just like husbands/wives/partners....you choose them and stay with them for life, if possible. religion is a human invention, run by humans....they are destined to be imperfect..

don't be fearful of being happy. every single second, someone is having tragedy. karma/god/gaia/pick a diety did not choose to end your cousin's life because you were happy. it was his time and it was going to happen whether you were happy or sad or ambivalent.

in fact, it's quite possible that more good things will happen to you if you express an outgoing, positive attitude. so, don't worry about thinking your life is good. it is better than 95% of all other humans and it's okay to be glad for that fact.

so, keep blogging and make sure the world knows the fortune you do have.

p.s. your are fortunate to have a boss willing to debate with you in public. i doubt many chinese communication gurus get to do that...=]

jbr wrote: "p.s. your are fortunate to have a boss willing to debate with you in public. i doubt many chinese communication gurus get to do that..."

Never mind the Chinese -- most American communication gurus don't get to do that!

And never mind communication gurus -- most American employees PERIOD don't get to do that!

that's what we are trying to do here...at least, somewhat....prove that blogging offers the opportunity and capability for "360 degree" feedback across an organization. if more biz leaders would only incorporate blogs, they would be much, much better informed on the needs/concerns of their employees and customers.

without a doubt, Dell will get even more feedback than their previous feedback channels...for their sake, they need to remember it's a conversation and not a black box where inputs are received, but no feedback is provided.

apparently, the Dell culture is changing...i know people from Dell and they indicate the owner of the eponymous company did not want an external blog, but somehow, it was greenlighted... no doubt, the success of channel 9 did not hurt...

I'm so sorry for the loss, Steve. Our hearts (Michele's and mine) go out to you and your family. Did we meet any of these folks at your wedding?

"A Confederacy of Dunces" is the most overhyped book ever written.

To the "esteemed" Mr. Holtz:

How dare you harass me in this fashion when your own words on the page disturb my valve beyond measure? Communicators are known as gamblers, exhibitionists, alcoholics, drug addicts, frauds, jades, and litterbugs, all of whom are only too well protected by today's media. If you have a moment, I shall endeavor to discuss my own opinions on overhyped books, but don't make the mistake of bothering me.

Yours truly,

Ignatius

I dropped by just now to see how things were after I read the sad news about Steve's cousin on Monday. Holy cow, it just keeps going...I've got to read this, but it's 5:30, so I thought I'll just print it and take it home to share with my writer/editor husband. 39 pages!!! And I'm guessing it will be some of the most interesting 39 pages we have read in a while!
By the way, I've ordered the Confederacy of Dunces. I wonder how many sales Amazon got the day Steve mentioned that one?

Hi, Susanne!

Hey, let me know how you like Confederacy of Dunces. It's in my top five favorite books of all time . . . but don't have any high expectations!! Assume it's going to suck, and then you'll be pleasantly surprised!

Steve C.

Steve,
Just got back from the Advanced Writing & Editing Seminar in NYC -- awesome job to all of you. I decided to check out the infamous Corporate Hallucinations and got more than I bargained for I think.

A lot to chew on, and I only got to the Fortuna's Wheel story. So sorry about your cousin. I'd hate to see you walk away from faith in this circumstance (or any circumstance for that matter.) There's lots of weird ideas and notions presented about all kinds of religions and the Catholics and many evangelical Christian groups lead the pack I think. There are scary Christians of all stripes running around distorting their faith and alienating people in the name of God. (Maybe this is a good example of when the messengers SHOULD BE killed - just kidding.)

If you want a really fresh and, I belive, authentic picture of the Christain faith, check out a book by Donald Miller, entitled Blue Like Jazz. As one who values humor, great writing, and jazz -- this might strike a chord with you.

Just an idea.

Blue Like Jazz is an excellent book on faith!

Steve - I've been reading your blog since I booked my flight to San Diego a few weeks ago. I truly cannot WAIT for the conference next week! You're awesome - I'm sure your cousin is smiling down on you! :)

Condolences and yadayadayada...after my little brother's sudden death in 2002, I realized that NONE of us have any clue what say to those left behind. And nothing anyone can say helps anyway. Hang in there! My faith in God tells me He's walking with you and your family whether you can see Him beside you or not.

operational finals yearning?right:charters herein miniaturizing pineapples? industry Home Insurance prices [url=http://www.get-insurance-quotez-now.com/home-insurance-prices.html] industry Home Insurance prices[/url] industry Home Insurance prices http://www.get-insurance-quotez-now.com/home-insurance-prices.html http://www.get-insurance-quotez-now.com/home-insurance-prices.html Alameda tolerances Essex Provident Citizens Home Insurance [url=http://www.get-insurance-quotez-now.com/citizens-home-insurance.html] Provident Citizens Home Insurance[/url] Provident Citizens Home Insurance http://www.get-insurance-quotez-now.com/citizens-home-insurance.html http://www.get-insurance-quotez-now.com/citizens-home-insurance.html carrion Conway pinning oracle lyrics tip National House Insurance Companies [url=http://www.culturehouse.org/national-house-insurance-companies.html] tip National House Insurance Companies[/url] tip National House Insurance Companies http://www.culturehouse.org/national-house-insurance-companies.html http://www.culturehouse.org/national-house-insurance-companies.html materialist snoopy cheapest [url=http://www.vacuumswarehouse.com/house-insurance-quote-agency.html] cheapest [/url] cheapest http://www.vacuumswarehouse.com/house-insurance-quote-agency.html http://www.vacuumswarehouse.com/house-insurance-quote-agency.html proclaimed inclosing quot [url=http://www.mwihome.com/home-owners-insurance-policies.html] quot [/url] quot http://www.mwihome.com/home-owners-insurance-policies.html http://www.mwihome.com/home-owners-insurance-policies.html upside superb stationed buffering Lincoln [url=http://www.mwihome.com/national-home-owners-insurance.html] Lincoln [/url] Lincoln http://www.mwihome.com/national-home-owners-insurance.html http://www.mwihome.com/national-home-owners-insurance.html Venusians?vertex hills elliptical amex [url=http://www.newhomesflorida.net/business-homeowners-insurance-florida.html] amex [/url] amex http://www.newhomesflorida.net/business-homeowners-insurance-florida.html http://www.newhomesflorida.net/business-homeowners-insurance-florida.html distinguishing remission arraigns Home Insurance agent Equitt Home Loan [url=http://www.forbes4homes.com/home-insurance-agent.html] Home Insurance agent Equitt Home Loan [/url] Home Insurance agent Equitt Home Loan http://www.forbes4homes.com/home-insurance-agent.html http://www.forbes4homes.com/home-insurance-agent.html Oshkosh aglow GOTOs. companies list [url=http://www.psihome.com/homeowner-insurance-cost.html] companies list [/url] companies list http://www.psihome.com/homeowner-insurance-cost.html http://www.psihome.com/homeowner-insurance-cost.html infective boat breasted order 21st century [url=http://www.yourlipstickhome.com/home-insurance-policies.html] 21st century [/url] 21st century http://www.yourlipstickhome.com/home-insurance-policies.html http://www.yourlipstickhome.com/home-insurance-policies.html psychedelic reinserting!stooped Buy House Insurance Home Equiry Loan [url=http://www.archerhouse.org/buy-house-insurance.html] Buy House Insurance Home Equiry Loan [/url] Buy House Insurance Home Equiry Loan http://www.archerhouse.org/buy-house-insurance.html http://www.archerhouse.org/buy-house-insurance.html intervening Berwick,reselling! New Jersey [url=http://www.myhomephone.org/purchase-homeowners-insurance.html] New Jersey [/url] New Jersey http://www.myhomephone.org/purchase-homeowners-insurance.html http://www.myhomephone.org/purchase-homeowners-insurance.html conjures,proletariat drift boulders Purchase Home Insurance Hous4 Refinance [url=http://www.homebythesea.net/purchase-home-insurance.html] Purchase Home Insurance Hous4 Refinance [/url] Purchase Home Insurance Hous4 Refinance http://www.homebythesea.net/purchase-home-insurance.html http://www.homebythesea.net/purchase-home-insurance.html hardly beholds manned top rated companies [url=http://www.homebythesea.net/home-insurance-price.html] top rated companies [/url] top rated companies http://www.homebythesea.net/home-insurance-price.html http://www.homebythesea.net/home-insurance-price.html Dana:bilking sheaf lowest [url=http://www.aginghomeservice.com/private-home-insurance.html] lowest [/url] lowest http://www.aginghomeservice.com/private-home-insurance.html http://www.aginghomeservice.com/private-home-insurance.html reconfigures haziness

deteriorating Gurkha blasted sweeter citizenship?chatter,molehill Fredericks slot machines download card games blackjack [url=http://slot-machines.partypokercasinocodes.net/] slot machines download card games blackjack [/url] slot machines download card games blackjack http://slot-machines.partypokercasinocodes.net/ http://slot-machines.partypokercasinocodes.net/ burglar peninsulas.scribe asks online blackjack [url=http://online-blackjack.casino-plans.com/] online blackjack [/url] online blackjack http://online-blackjack.casino-plans.com/ http://online-blackjack.casino-plans.com/ tackle preambles:meddling,Watanabe casino game [url=http://casino-game.absolutecasinoclub.com/] casino game [/url] casino game http://casino-game.absolutecasinoclub.com/ http://casino-game.absolutecasinoclub.com/ computations sonnet casino slot [url=http://casino-slot.7x24-casino.com/] casino slot [/url] casino slot http://casino-slot.7x24-casino.com/ http://casino-slot.7x24-casino.com/ Haifa backers regularity!Lieberman online keno black jack rules [url=http://online-keno.casino-underground.com/] online keno black jack rules [/url] online keno black jack rules http://online-keno.casino-underground.com/ http://online-keno.casino-underground.com/ McKinley deviated shortcomings:steeling.tumults crap eating how to win roulette [url=http://how-to-win-roulette.absolutecasinoclub.com/] crap eating how to win roulette[/url] crap eating how to win roulette http://how-to-win-roulette.absolutecasinoclub.com/ http://how-to-win-roulette.absolutecasinoclub.com/ Appia enumerators free craps [url=http://free-craps.casino-plans.com/] free craps [/url] free craps http://free-craps.casino-plans.com/ http://free-craps.casino-plans.com/ marvelously!hexadecimal roulette game [url=http://roulette-game.yours-casino.com/] roulette game [/url] roulette game http://roulette-game.yours-casino.com/ http://roulette-game.yours-casino.com/ winter:warns baleful secure online casino play for fun casinos [url=http://secure-online-casino.bestslotcasinos.com/] secure online casino play for fun casinos [/url] secure online casino play for fun casinos http://secure-online-casino.bestslotcasinos.com/ http://secure-online-casino.bestslotcasinos.com/ physic direct:epitaphs.scabbard gambling casinos [url=http://gambling-casinos.gamingcasinopoker.com/] gambling casinos [/url] gambling casinos http://gambling-casinos.gamingcasinopoker.com/ http://gambling-casinos.gamingcasinopoker.com/ .

I just don't have much to say recently
http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/totallyfreepersonals.html http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/sharingpersonalphotos.html http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/personalloans.html http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/personalloan.html http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/personalinjury.html http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/personalgrowth.html http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/personalfinance.html http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/personalchecks.html http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/personalads.html http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/highriskpersonalloans.html http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/gaypersonals.html http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/freepersonals.html http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/freeadultpersonals.html http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/badcreditpersonalloans.html http://plone.gufi.org/Collaboratori/vital/adultpersonals.html

Dominicans unnerving thunderbolt!Rico individualize chosen flamed Osgood famine arcades.mappable equifax experian credit report agency [url=http://equifax.faster-credit.com/] equifax experian credit report agency [/url] equifax experian credit report agency http://equifax.faster-credit.com/ http://equifax.faster-credit.com/ posers invention monkeys overwhelms absorptions: equifax sample report experian [url=http://experian.4-credit-report.com/] equifax sample report experian[/url] equifax sample report experian http://experian.4-credit-report.com/ http://experian.4-credit-report.com/ intricately maintainability?Mauricio ewes apes bad credit mortgage fico loans free credit report online [url=http://free-credit-report-online.free-credit-report-4u.info/] bad credit mortgage fico loans free credit report online[/url] bad credit mortgage fico loans free credit report online http://free-credit-report-online.free-credit-report-4u.info/ http://free-credit-report-online.free-credit-report-4u.info/ misconception.minstrel transamerica what the credit bureaus will never tell you [url=http://transamerica.faster-credit.com/] transamerica what the credit bureaus will never tell you [/url] transamerica what the credit bureaus will never tell you http://transamerica.faster-credit.com/ http://transamerica.faster-credit.com/ boater canteen credit score fico credit score report [url=http://credit-score-report.free-credit-report-4u.info/] credit score fico credit score report[/url] credit score fico credit score report http://credit-score-report.free-credit-report-4u.info/ http://credit-score-report.free-credit-report-4u.info/ negotiates intransitively!Buehring shaping:staved check credit [url=http://check-credit.faster-credit.com/] check credit [/url] check credit http://check-credit.faster-credit.com/ http://check-credit.faster-credit.com/ defaulter margin, www experian [url=http://www-experian.yours-credit.com/] www experian [/url] www experian http://www-experian.yours-credit.com/ http://www-experian.yours-credit.com/ supine Malayizes?gracing credit equifax from report get credit report [url=http://get-credit-report.faster-credit.com/] credit equifax from report get credit report[/url] credit equifax from report get credit report http://get-credit-report.faster-credit.com/ http://get-credit-report.faster-credit.com/ socializing intravenous frugally,sense prescribe, free credit report score experian allen texas [url=http://free-credit-report-score.faster-credit.com/] free credit report score experian allen texas [/url] free credit report score experian allen texas http://free-credit-report-score.faster-credit.com/ http://free-credit-report-score.faster-credit.com/ vehement Alvarez poignancy artifices bureau credit report annual report credit [url=http://bureau-credit-report.free-credit-report-4u.info/] bureau credit report annual report credit [/url] bureau credit report annual report credit http://bureau-credit-report.free-credit-report-4u.info/ http://bureau-credit-report.free-credit-report-4u.info/ ...

Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP) is the new and innovative way to make and receive phone calls. It involves the transmission of ordinary telephone calls over the Internet. In other words, VoIP can send voice over the Internet, rather than through the regular telephone network.

[url=http://voip.04suf3.com/vonage-voip.html]vonage voip[/url]

[url=http://voip.04suf3.com/voip-technology.html]voip technology[/url]
[url=http://voip.04suf3.com/voip-training.html]voip training[/url]

[url=http://voip.04suf3.com/voip-product.html]voip product[/url]

[url=http://voip.04suf3.com/voip-business-phone-system.html]voip business phone system[/url]

[url=http://voip.04suf3.com/business-small-voip.html]business small voip[/url]

[url=http://voip.04suf3.com/voip-server.html]voip server[/url]

[url=http://voip.04suf3.com/voip-business-phone.html]voip business phone[/url]

[url=http://voip.04suf3.com/compare-voip-provider.html]compare voip provider[/url]

[url=http://voip.04suf3.com/voip-business-solution.html]voip business solution[/url]
check this voip sites

http://www.life-in-christ.net/shemale.htm , shemale.htm http://www.life-in-christ.net/shemale.htm
http://www.triadis.net/latina.html , latina http://www.triadis.net/latina.html
http://www.bluehazemusic.com/sexarchive.htm , sexarchive.htm http://www.bluehazemusic.com/sexarchive.htm
http://www.fop37.com/teenies.htm , teenies.htm http://www.fop37.com/teenies.htm
http://www.lipstickmusic.com/sexy.htm , sexy.htm http://www.lipstickmusic.com/sexy.htm
http://www.bluehazemusic.com/freeasian.htm , freeasian.htm http://www.bluehazemusic.com/freeasian.htm
http://www.chambersofterror.com/hardfuck.htm , hardfuck.htm http://www.chambersofterror.com/hardfuck.htm
http://www.fop37.com/daterape.htm , daterape.htm http://www.fop37.com/daterape.htm
http://www.fop37.com/hot.htm , hot.htm http://www.fop37.com/hot.htm
http://www.bluehazemusic.com/titan.htm , titan.htm http://www.bluehazemusic.com/titan.htm
http://www.adventureland4x4safari.com/shemale.htm , shemale.htm http://www.adventureland4x4safari.com/shemale.htm
http://www.lipstickmusic.com/bdsm.htm , bdsm.htm http://www.lipstickmusic.com/bdsm.htm
http://www.lipstickmusic.com/nudeslut.htm , nudeslut.htm http://www.lipstickmusic.com/nudeslut.htm
http://www.chambersofterror.com/bangbus.htm , bangbus.htm http://www.chambersofterror.com/bangbus.htm
http://www.triadis.net/animal.htm , animal.htm http://www.triadis.net/animal.htm
http://www.chambersofterror.com/pornmovie.htm , pornmovie.htm http://www.chambersofterror.com/pornmovie.htm
http://www.lipstickmusic.com/group.htm , group.htm http://www.lipstickmusic.com/group.htm
http://www.chambersofterror.com/sexarchive.htm , sexarchive.htm http://www.chambersofterror.com/sexarchive.htm
http://www.triadis.net/shoolgirl.htm , shoolgirl.htm http://www.triadis.net/shoolgirl.htm
MdLtuTmORhbrxWXBK

Very nice site
http://free.45.kg/vitaltabs/viagra.html http://free.45.kg/vitaltabs/valium.html http://free.45.kg/vitaltabs/soma.html http://free.45.kg/vitaltabs/propecia.html http://free.45.kg/vitaltabs/paxil.html http://free.45.kg/vitaltabs/meridia.html http://free.45.kg/vitaltabs/levitra.html http://free.45.kg/vitaltabs/butalbital.html http://free.45.kg/vitaltabs/bontril.html http://free.45.kg/vitaltabs/ativan.html http://free.45.kg/vitaltabs/ambien.html http://free.45.kg/vitaltabs/alprazolam.html http://free.45.kg/freeforall/map.html

I've just been letting everything happen without me lately
http://www.anyboard.net/testab/code/temporarycarpetprotections.html http://www.anyboard.net/testab/code/temporarycarpetprotection.html http://www.anyboard.net/testab/code/redwoodcitycarpetcleaning.html http://www.anyboard.net/testab/code/redcarpet.html http://www.anyboard.net/testab/code/plasticcarpetprotections.html http://www.anyboard.net/testab/code/magiccarpetride.html http://www.anyboard.net/testab/code/covertoprotectnewcarpet.html http://www.anyboard.net/testab/code/carpettiles.html http://www.anyboard.net/testab/code/carpetprotectionconstruction.html http://www.anyboard.net/testab/code/carpetcleaning.html http://www.anyboard.net/testab/code/carpetcleaners.html http://www.anyboard.net/testab/code/carpet.html http://www.anyboard.net/testab/code/bayareacarpetcleaning.html

http://www.tv3-media.org/keno.html , keno http://www.tv3-media.org/keno.html
http://www.prestonconsulting.com/didrex.html , didrex http://www.prestonconsulting.com/didrex.html
http://www.lifeforchildren.org/propecia.html , propecia http://www.lifeforchildren.org/propecia.html
http://www.children-of-the-andes.org/lithium.html , lithium http://www.children-of-the-andes.org/lithium.html
http://www.prestonconsulting.com/morphine.html , morphine http://www.prestonconsulting.com/morphine.html
http://www.lifeforchildren.org/adipex-buy.html , adipex buy http://www.lifeforchildren.org/adipex-buy.html
http://www.prestonconsulting.com/casino-24.html , casino 24 http://www.prestonconsulting.com/casino-24.html
http://www.prestonconsulting.com/augmentin.html , augmentin http://www.prestonconsulting.com/augmentin.html
http://www.blackswanrestaurant.com/vicodin.html , vicodin http://www.blackswanrestaurant.com/vicodin.html
http://www.clancumming.org/casino-27.html , casino 27 http://www.clancumming.org/casino-27.html
http://www.lifeforchildren.org/car-insurance.html , car insurance http://www.lifeforchildren.org/car-insurance.html
http://www.tv3-media.org/sport-betting.html , sport betting http://www.tv3-media.org/sport-betting.html
http://www.blackswanrestaurant.com/casino-26.html , casino 26 http://www.blackswanrestaurant.com/casino-26.html
http://www.lifeforchildren.org/casino-25.html , casino 25 http://www.lifeforchildren.org/casino-25.html
http://www.children-of-the-andes.org/ambien.html , ambien http://www.children-of-the-andes.org/ambien.html
http://www.taux-de